A friend called from overseas: “Congratulations on Obama’s reelection,” he said. “But isn’t it a shame that so many states plan to withdraw from America now?”
It is easy to see how foreigners might be confused by the flurry of secession petitions posted on the White House website, which promises an official response to any issue that gets more than 25,000 signatures.
Comments
What this 'movement' proves is that, in this life, we must endure all manner of cranks and malcontents. The Constitution affords many remedies for even amorophous complaints, but when others don't concur with these 'rebels', they decide the only recourse is to take their toys and go home. The petitioners represent a tiny fraction, less than 1% of the electorate, even in Texas, (which I sometimes feel should never have been admitted to the Union), and, except within the lunatic asylum of right wing talk radio, they are, and can be, safely ignored.
The angry petitioners are venting, as the nation they used to love is changing radically. A nation that used to inspire people to serve it, protect it, and improve it, is becoming a welfare state. Obama was re elected by the growing number of citizens who are being subsidized by the government, and by those who want an increasing amount of government subsidies. We are declining, and becoming a welfare state. This will lead to permanently high unemployment, slow economic growth, and a fiscal train wreck that will rival Greece's. May God save our great nation.
As I stated in my comment,"...we must endure all manner of cranks and malcontents." The fact is the nation is evolving, as it always has, and you sound no different than my grandpa did fifty years ago. Stop complaining, get a handle on demographics, and work for realistic change. Before you do however, catch your breath, the world's not ending, turn off talk radio, and go watch Thornton Wilder's "By the Skin of Our Teeth".
Richmond, you've got it backwards. If more people are relying on government programs, the cause of that isn't the government programs.
Housing assistance, food stamps, state provided health care etc. are symptoms of the overall problem of corporate greed. Our economic system is rigged against most Americans. Our tax laws, banking laws, insurance laws and investment laws on Walk Street all work against people. Having lots of folks on public assistance is the result of our system that favors the rich and landed. Government is the mechanism that reacts to the situation likea triage unit. But all government can do is try to stop the bleeding. The underlying disease can only be treated by changing the rules to favor equal opportunity.
The heaviest collection of secessionists reside in the poorest states dependent on the federal government to survive. For every dollar they send to the Fed they get over a dollar back. If they truly want to leave the union they better figure out how to pay their way first.
I was recently asked what I thought about this particular movement by an old academic friend of mine. She not being much of a TV watcher I told her to catch Ken Burn's piece on the Dust Bowl. It is a great example of the fact that without the federal govt. a good many of these states would have dried up and blown away 80 years ago.
The secessionist movement is no different than the "libertarian" movement or the "left wing" radicals of my day back in the 60's. It is a great expression of immature thinking brought about by frustration with a system that they think fails to promote the freedoms they think are being denied them. However, the fact is their freedoms remain, it is merely the fact that they must meet certain obligations and accept the viewpoints and the will of the nation as expressed in elections that annoy them. They would have a nation in which everyone agreed with them and they had no obligations to the nation.
Changing demographics, a changing world leads some folks to seek the ideologies that would protect them from those changes. Sadly for them change is a fact of life. Change and progress bring to the fore new people, new ideas and lets face it new centers of power. One can no more run away from change then they can the fact of mortality. Most grown-ups recognize that and eventually these folks will come to recognize it too.
It was the "government" of the time that instructed the farmers to "grow," "grow," "grow," and "harvest," "harvest," "harvest" as much as possible.
Working hard, building a business, and saving my money for my old age isn't an entitled freedom. It is personal liberty and the foundation of this country. Paying for others isn't in my plan; where is the self-respect of self-reliance? What does 'changing demographics' mean anyway?
For most of these dissenter and wackos it has nothing to do with the size of government or the re-emergence of statism but the simple fact that they don't want a black President. If you noticed, and I'm sure you all did, there wasn't much talk about this before Obama become President. However, that withstanding, I think there is a whole other faction of folks who wouldn't mind to see these states secede so long as, should things go awry, they don't look for help from those states that want to remain part of this great country.
No, those of us who were outraged during the Reagan era or the W. years simply talked of moving elsewhere. :-)
Ms. Stockman obviously had nothing to write about today.
Actually, if you couldn't tell, I spent quite a bit of time on this and considered it an interesting window into American culture. You might not find it interesting to examine the views of people you don't agree with, but I do.
Actually Ms. Stockman few people realize how much work it takes to write a good "anything" and this was good on an interesting subject.
Indeed, the red-state blue-state divide is more than just a political cliche, it represents a fundamental difference in how we view the world. As a Bostonian I feel much closer, spiritually and otherwise, to a Frenchman or a German, than I do to someone from Kentucky or Kansas. I consider the red states--all Republican and with most believing that the earth is 10,000 years old--as racist parasites sapping the wealth from the much more productively affluent blue states. New England would be much better off as the 11th province of Canada rather than being a part of the United States.
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Yes, it is intriguing to imagine that we lost the Revolutionary war and most of the original colonies are Canadians. And that Lincoln had had the good sense to let the Confederacy go and be rid of them. And that the Southwest all still belonged to Mexico.
Farrah,this is one reader that appreciates your efforts in the research you undertook to write this column. To date, the only source of information on this topic has been mostly overseas news sites. I do find it of interest that so many states attained enough signatures to garner a response from the White House. Whether or not we take this action seriously, I'm curious if something of this scope has ever happened before. The other secession movemedescribe descrrat post-Bush election pale in comparison the what is taking place now.
I for one would be interested in a deeper understanding of the core players and principles behind these movements. It is too simplistic to dismiss their viewpoints as others have done here without some insight. It would also be interesting to see if the secession movement expands as we progress through Obama's second term. That would be a more clear measurement of a potential trend.
Thanks for your interest, ndcsjp. From what I can tell, the Obama administration is the first to put up something like the "We the People" website which allows citizens to start petitions on literally any subject, and get a response if they reach 25,000 signatures. This is an idea out of the Internet age. I don't think Bush did this, and prior to Bush the Internet wasn't being used in this way. Of course, many of the petitions are silly and many of these secession petitions are silly, too. Massachusetts voted overwhelmingly for Obama, so I don't think it means much when a few thousands people add their symbolic signature to the idea of secession. But when 115,000 people do - even if it is a tiny percentage of the population of Texas, you can tell that it has touched some kind of chord. It seems that, over the years, many philosophers and political scientists have written about the ideal size of a republic, and many believed that republics had to be small. While I don't agree at all with secessionists, I do think they represent an interesting strain. As someone who has seen nations torn apart by tribes or groups that want to break away for their own reasons, or maybe a deserve for more political power by those in charge of an ethnic or religious group, I feel fortunate that we are not facing an effort here that has a chance in Hell of success.
Farah, thank you for the informative response. I was curious as to why the numbers for secession were so much higher than during the Bush years, but I think we can safely attribute those inflated values to social networking and Internet-based petitions. I seriously question whether this type of movement would have gotten as many signatures through a valid grass-roots campaign. At this point, I'd like to see the leaders of the secession movement try to attain critical mass through a ballot box effort. I sense their efforts meet the same fate as the effort in Vermont after the Bush election. I first read about this secession effort from various columnists and pundits in Europe, who were comparing this news to the conversations taking place around the EU regarding a possible break-up over there. As you are aware, they are having economic and stability issues of their own. Let's hope all parties move forward and solver their collective issues together.
Nice article! "Richmond12" indicates the USA is declining, but it's simply not true. But the deadlock in Washington results almost entirely from Southern intransigence. Common sense points to the South as the real drag on American life. Ever notice how it's always the South that needs to be dragged into the modern world? Last to wish to see the end of the international slave trade...over 600,000 dead in a war to end slavery...brutal lynchings of minorities and refusal to pass anti-lynching laws...the evangelical power behind Prohibition (of alcohol)...legalized Jim Crow until the 1960's...war mongering in Vietnam and elsewhere...blocking the Equal Rights Amendment...massive incarceration of young black men, the new "Jim Crow", mostly for petty drug offenses...lousy Southern test scores, huge teenage pregnancy rates, incredible divorce rates... anti-science denial of climate change and evolution...biblical literacy...stupid coastal planning...etc! Nice book out there which needs reading: Better Off Without "Em (Chuck Thompson). Oh, one more thing: Southern (Red) States do better than a one to one return on federal dollars (taxes paid vs. federal dollars spent by states). Some of the great American Southern states are at a 2 to 1 ratio or close to it. Same with the northern most of the Southern states: Alaska. Shouldn't forget the Palin family patriots and the Alaska Independence Movement! If they want to leave...just go! No arguments this time around!
The main thing that's been declining in America is the level of education in the red states, leading to such disasters as electing ignorant ideologues to be state Gubers and to the House of Reprehensibles.
This has been goin' around for some time... Dear Red States: We're ticked off at your Neanderthal attitudes and politics and we've decided we're leaving. We in the Blue States intend to form our own country. In case you aren't aware that includes California, Hawaii, Oregon, Washington, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan, Illinois and the rest of the Northeast. We believe this split will be beneficial to the nation and especially to the people of the new country of The Enlightened States of America (E.S.A). To sum up briefly: You get Texas, Oklahoma and all the slave states. We get stem cell research and the best beaches. We get Andrew Cuomo and Elizabeth Warren. You get Bobby Jindal and Todd Akin. We get the Statue of Liberty. You get OpryLand. We get Intel and Microsoft. You get WorldCom. We get Harvard. You get Ole' Miss. We get 85 percent of America's venture capital and entrepreneurs. You get Alabama. We get two-thirds of the tax revenue. You get to make the red states pay their fair share. Since our aggregate divorce rate is 22 percent lower than the Christian Coalition's, we get a bunch of happy families. You get a bunch of single moms. With the Blue States in hand we will have firm control of 80% of the country's fresh water, more than 90% of the pineapple and lettuce, 92% of the nation's fresh fruit, 95% of America's quality wines (you can serve French wines at state dinners) 90% of all cheese, 90 percent of the high tech industry, most of the US low sulphur coal, all living redwoods, sequoias and condors, all the Ivy and Seven Sister schools plus Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Princeton, Cal Tech and MIT. With the Red States you will have to cope with 88% of all obese Americans and their projected health care costs, 92% of all US mosquitoes, nearly 100% of the tornadoes, 90% of the hurricanes, 99% of all Southern Baptists, virtually 100% of all televangelists, Rush Limbaugh, Bob Jones University, Clemson and the University of Georgia. We get Hollywood and Yosemite, thank you. 38% of those in the Red states believe Jonah was actually swallowed by a whale, 62% believe life is sacred unless we're discussing the death penalty or gun laws, 44% say that evolution is only a theory, 53% that Saddam was involved in 9/11 and 61% of you crazy bastards believe you are people with higher morals then we lefties. We're taking the good weed too. You can have that crap they grow in Mexico. Sincerely, Citizen of the Enlightened States of America
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Texas could always rejoin Mexico if they'll have them.
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Illegal Mexicans are returning to Mexico - not enough opportunity in the US.
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It would certainly be interesting if all these secession movements were put to the popular vote. Somehow I doubt the movements are as popular outside their respective echo chambers. What is truly amusing is that they would adopt the constitution of the Confederacy, since in its own time it was found to be an unworkable compact. And what if the Union did break up? I don't believe we would have two nations as a result, but three or more (probably not 50, however). I suppose it might be a further interesting academic exercise to try and predict what might constitute a viable nation, but even the arguments about the divide of 'givers versus takers of Federal taxes' ignore the distribution of resources.
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So an extremely small to infinitesimally small minority of voters in all states have signed secession petitions, and her overseas friend thinks that "so many states plan to withdraw from America." Makes you wonder how misinformed all these citizens are from other countries that overwhelmingly wanted Obama reelected.
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Or how badly informed our own citizens are about what happens abroad, for that matter.
To me, one of the most enlightening pieces of political data I ever heard described the percentage of Americans who could even identify the location of Nicuragua at the height of the Iran Contra affair of the 1980's (never mind who the contras even were). That number was significantly less than 50%. A lack of even the most basic knowledge didn't prevent most of the country from having strong opinions about what happened, though.
I suspect things are little different either here or abroad today.
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Just wait...when the black UN helicopters arrive the Republic of White Texas will be ready!
Yup. Gitcher guns and get up on top of a high building like the Alamo, and keep an eye for them thar danged UN helicopters. Pack a lunch, cause it may take a while. A long, long while. Because UN black helicopters only exist in the fevered imagination of idiots like Glenn Beck.
Reminds me of the Myth of the Lost Cause!
The time has come to dissolve the United States. We here in the north east have more in common with many other foreign countries then we do with Texas. Evidence the recent talk about escalation in the middle east. Most of our allies advocate restraint and diplomacy. Then we get those texans spouting about an invasion. Why do i need to consider them part of my country? Please go away!!
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Maybe for all those RED states that have asked to secede, Obama should just have cases of "crying towels" made up with the Presidential Seal on them and the words "Republican Crying Towel" (like they do in bowling leagues) and send them to the respective State Houses for each of those states. The Govenors can distribute them to their croanies. Honestly, the Dems did not carry on like THIS when the GOP stole the last two elections for Bush!
For a start, all the secessionists have to do is convince their state legislatures to refuse to apply for or accept any federal money. We are trying to figure out how to reduce a federal deficit. No one is going to protest too much if they want to turn their noses up at the cursed federal cash flow that is poisoning their states.
This isn't about our relationship to the federal government. It's about a small minority of folks in certain states who are too racist to accept a black man in the White House. My advice to them: Please leave and find another country you prefer.
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Frankly I don't see any real ideology behind this secessionist nonsense. All the folks with their tri-corner hats carry on as if the founding fathers would support their position, which of course they would not. "Bedford9999" asks "what is changing demographics anyway" as if he has no clue as to its meaning. Perhaps he doesn't but in not knowing what it means he fails to understand what these tri-corner folks are saying when they say, "take back our country". It does not take a sociologist to see that the fundamental value structures are changing or that the racial and ethnic make-up are changing. When these folks talk of secession and an overreaching federal government they are talking about a population that sees a greater role for government in protecting the rights of a diverse population. A younger population that sees government as an appropriate actor in the nations life. A lot of folks fear the power they see growing around them and their own inability to control it. Sadly for them centralization in a modern world with its technology and its reach seems to be something that is a natural evolution. Running away won't solve the problem engagement may keep it under control.
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I'm not sure if the US is declining or simply leveling off. I've never been a believer in unlimited growth. Have always invested with the thgought that there are limits to any given sector or growing market. Same is true for national economies. Sooner or later you get equilibrium or a bust.
Let them go. Cut them off from funding and resources... Turn over their debts to them... Most are unwanted Racist...
By the way, those commenting on here about stopping the Fed from giving the States Fed Money, here's something from Government 101. There is no "Fed money" it is "OUR" money. Without the people who WORK and PAY taxes, there is no Fed money to give. Please keep that in mind when referring to our Federal government as if they were a benevolent rich uncle.
Actually it is the Feds money. The Fed prints it and disperses it. It is supported by the enitirety of the US economy and the nations total worth. You indeed earn it but techinically it does in fact belong to the nation as a whole. You see what you seem to miss is that without the country you have no money, no currency, no infrastructure. The fact is you don't live in a vacumn nor are you in complete control of your life or your destiny. The belief that you are is delusionary. Next time you see a shooting star consider yourself lucky nature didn't pubch your ticket.
sorry, "punch your ticket".
I'm all for Texas seceding IF we can then saw it loose from the rest of the country, push it out into the Gulf a little way and create a few thousand miles' worth of new beachfront property.
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"cantabrigian1" I noted this comment by you to me. "It was the "government" of the time that instructed the farmers to "grow," "grow," "grow," and "harvest," "harvest," "harvest" as much as possible."
You have your history wrong. The govt. told them no such thing. The fact is the price of wheat made a marked rise and farmers overproduced in response and then proceeded to try and produce more when the price dropped. Farmers in those days much like today didn't follow anyone's instructions. Farmers simply responded to an unregulated market. I'm not saying it should be regulated merely pointing out that was the reason for overproduction, not any order from the federal govt. You know if you re-write history it doesn't make an analysis of the present any different or accurate.
To me, it's simple. I'm am American. Although I love Dorchester, and I love Massachusetts, at the end of the day I love the USA. I love it when it's wrong and I want it to do better, and I love it even more when it's right. But I always love it. If some people are disappointed by a new America that they can't relate to, I can't relate to that. I would say to them: "Hit the road, Jack, and don't you come back no more, no more, no more, no more, no more, hit the road, Jack, don't you come back no more". Seriously. But I'm a simple man.
Massachusetts, by voting for Deval Patrick is trying to secede from the Nation.