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The Boston Globe

Opinion

jeff jacoby

A vast moral difference

Palestinians have a fierce new song to accompany their intensified conflict with Israel. “Strike a Blow at Tel Aviv,” recorded by Shadi al-Bourini and Qassem al-Najjar, was posted last week on various Palestinian websites, including the Facebook page of the TV show Fenjan Al-Balad, which describes its mission as “trying to influence young Palestinian society for the better.” The video, which features images of wounded Israelis and massed Qassam artillery rockets, opens with these lines:

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A sobering analysis, and spot on.  We know just what needs to be done, but unfortunately we don't have that bold leader with the vision and courage to "kick the can down the road."

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What needs to be done? Was the idiot bush a bold leader?

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Well we know where Jeff Jacoby lines up on this issue.  Constant war.  The voices of hatred happen to abide on both sides.  Ariel Sharon's son's comments do not fall far from the voice and actions of the father.  He called for "flattening Gaza."  Both sides have done atrocious things to the innocents of their population.  Fortunately there is a fly in both their ointments.  Israel had to spend $100,000 a whack to knock $500 missiles out of the air and Hamas has to endure the slaughter of its non combatant citizens.  With all this human effort just evaporating into nothingness and having to live with continual conflict to boot it has to finally dawn on the silent partners of this piece.  They are the people of both divisions who select their leaders to carry out policy.  So far they are getting a pretty bad deal.

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We need to stop blindly supporting Isreal and jacoby is a punk

 

"...and Hamas has to endure the slaughter of its non combatant citizens." It's moe likely that Hamas welcomes the slaughter of its civilians - especially women and children - because it generates sympathy in the international community.

"But what can diplomacy achieve with an enemy that rejects the basic norms of international behavior?"

Now that is an interesting line it kind of goes with the whole "morality" thing.  Where exactly is their morality in warfare.  One cold argue the old "just war" theory but that's a crock.  Who in this idiotic conflict has the moral high ground.  How far back historically does each side have to go to justify their position.  Would someone please check with "Lucy" to see where her prodigy ended up. 

No, what we have here is two people supposedly pining for peace yet each time they are given an electoral opportunity they vote in the most militant of politicians.  Wait, breaking news it so happens an election is coming up in Israel and Hamas has seen a decline in its popularity in the Gaza.  No tail wagging here.

The jihadists claim the moral high ground, it's a religious thing you know except their religion doesn't support the position.  The long suffering Jews claim the moral high ground because they have been long suffering.  Both sides are covered in blood.

One can only have sympathy for the civilian populations of both sides for they have been sold down the river by their political and religious leaders.  It is the 21st century and we get 12th century thinking and warfare.  Moral high ground, chasm?

Are you kidding?  They both stink and picking sides doesn't help.

 

 

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Agreed...but arming sides helps less.

 

Can't argue that.  A world wide embargo of both might help.  Treat them like the petulant children they appear to be.

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One thing that I can say with a high degree of certitude is that I'm sick of hearing about the conflicts over in Israel.  No really, and I say this as someone who generally tries to stay well informed, but the news from Israel today is not much different than it was forty years ago. I'm not Jewish myself so there will be those who say I could never understand, but I reject the entire concept of a religious state anyways. I think I would be quite content if news outlets in the US stopped covering these asinine conflicts so much. There are many, many other troubled areas in the word that don't get the coverage. I don't care about this topic any longer. Oh, and Jeff, the collateral damage in terms of dead children in the latest round of insanity pretty much precludes your yammering about any moral high-ground. 

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AMEN!

First, Israel is not a religious state. 

Second, I would suggest you take your head out of the sand.  The press has been covering this conflict since 1948 because it has gone on since 1948.  If the press stops covering it, it does not mean that it's finished.

Third, children are dying because the terrorists hide amongst the population. 

Fourth, no country would "turn the other cheek" when they were being rocketed by another.  What would be your reaction if the Mexicans were sending rockets into Brownsville or the Canadiens into Detroit ?

This will continue until the Palestinians and other Muslim nations commit to Israel's right to exist.  Until then, stay tuned.

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Excellent piece here Mr. Jacoby on exposing Hamas for what they are -- terrorists. It’s amazing that where there are human rights violations and abuses in over 150 countries the world focus on Israel for defending herself -- against terrorists. Apparently those in the U.S. that are calling for Israeli restraint forget what it's like to be victimized by terror. Apparently people do have very short term memory if they forget what it was like on 9/11. And apparently I need to remind everyone that there weren’t any calls for a drawdown against al-Qaeda. And there shouldn’t have been then ans shouldn't be now. And there shouldn’t be for Israel as it attempts to protect itself from one of the most malevolent extremist groups in the world. In fact the world should be encouraging Israel to devastate such a group not negotiate with them.

The problem is much deeper than Hamas. Hamas is just the tip of the spear so to speak. They are the front line shock troops, the media magnets. Behind Hamas is the ummah [worldwide community of Muslims] The ummah is happy to have Hamas acting as a permanent hornet's nest on Israel's doorstep.

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The "ummah" is a theological belief not a reality.  Even in that there are differences.  The Shia "ummah", perhaps the Sunni or alewite or any other number of offshoots.  Try getting a fundamental understanding of your enemy before you start with these vast conspiracies.  These kind of overarching beliefsand generalizations lead only down dead end roads.

Well stated article....and I agree with Flags that it's much more widespread than Hamas.  I'm sorry, but it's Islamic Fundamentalism around the world against Western values - the stated goal by Al Quaeda to ferment a war between the 2 unfortunately is showing itself everywhere.  Where are the moderate Muslims in condemning this approach?  Only they can have a real effect in changing people's perceptions....

Now JJ is practicing censorship?  My comment did not violate any posting policies, yet was removed.  Did my statement that both sides bear responsibility for the failure to make piece, and thus 'a pox on both their houses', not conform with Jacoby's personal posting policy: never blame Israel, regardless of the circumstances or reality on the ground?

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You do realize, don't you, that Jacoby has nothing to do with censoring comments about his column?

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Very one-sided column. I guess Israel has done nothing but be a good neighbor? I'm no expert but it seems to me the whole problem was caused by Israel pushing current inhabitants out of the way, and is still doing it, plus treating arabs like dirt. How would you feel if Wampanoags came to your door and claimed your house because it was on indian land according to tradition? I feel there is and was a failure on the part of Jews to deal fairly with inhabitants of the region.

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HHKitchener2... Oh please, Israel was established by the UN, but only after a protracted terrorist campaign by Shin Bet and the Stern Gang against the ruling British following WWII. The bombing of the King David Hotel? Assassination plots? Then the Balfour Treaty, followed by Israeli lobbying and buying off certain members of Congress (which is still rampant - by the way, thank you AIPAC!). Popular history always remains the same - it is written by the conquerors and not the vanquished.

The vast moral difference you refer to must be the blockade of Gaza by Israel, or the use of phosphorous bombs on the Palestinian civilians in the last Gaza war, or maybe you are referring to the 100 to 1 kill ratio of Palestinian civilians to Israel civilians, or perhaps you are referring to the calorie count on food entering Gaza through the blockade so the Palestinians will subsist but not starve, or  the prohibition on concrete so the Palestinians can't rebuild bombed, bulldozed, and destroyed houses, or forcing Palestinians to live in refugee camps for half a century while the Israelis persist in their policy of ethnic cleansing and land grabbing.  Maybe you are referring to the fact that Israeli is becoming a nation of rightwing religious fundamentalists similar to the Islamist fundamentalist they so abhor.  Mayb...

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And maybe you don't know what you're talking about.

Care to expand on that?  Or is sneering enough in your world?

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Israel is the author of its own misfortunes.

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The American people could have chosen a true leader with the courage to "kick the can down the road" but instead picked Obama, who, along with Hillary Clinton, is foolishingly engaging in an effort to prevent bloodshed.  Alas, we reap what we sow.  Look upon what we could have had and despair.......   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukhFBJgrZxM

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SO, how exactly would one "kick the can down the road?" 

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I would argue that saying Israel is equal to Hamas is a false equivalency equal to what many of you accuse Jacoby of doing routinely. Jacoby is correct for the most part, but I'm not sure there even is a good way forward. I would argue that their election of Hamas would be equal to us electing Ann Coulter president here - she of the nuke them all and Christianize the Middle East. No easy answers for anyone.

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My point was ideological...not logical or likely.

this is what Israel is up against (graphic)

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2012/11/inhumanity-in-gaza.php

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what, exactly, are you "disliking"?

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Hamas and other militant Muslims will never recognize or accept Israel's right to exist as a nation just as Adolf Hitler would never recognize a Jewish person's right to exist as a human being. Preceding this, it was not long ago when the Inquisitions prevailed in the western world. The persecutions and attempts to destroy Jews throughout recorded history is abominable. Israel must always be on guard to defend itself from an enemy who launches Iranian supplied rockets from nearby schools and hospitals (human shields) and uses suicide bombers to harm the general population as they go about their normal daily business. The current Hamas strategy is to manipulate the media in favor of their quest to draw Israel into a position as the aggressor.

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Correction for the above:  Only where anti-semitism prevailed.

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Israel now reaps what it has sown throughout its decades-long exploitation of the Palestinians. They had their chance to make a deal before Hamas came to power, but their warhawks - egged on by the neo-cons in our country, put the kabosh on it. That my dear friends is how the jihadists came to power in the first place. Bibi and his neo-con warmongering friends couldn't possibly have wished for a better outcome. Let us hope that American and partners' diplomacy can put the toothpaste back into the tube and create a lasting solution - a legitimate two-party state and the sharing of Jerusalem, a sacred city to three major religions. Let us all pray that no more innocent lives are lost to religious fanaticism or political intransigence. And the rabid and predictable response from Jacoby AIPAC and Mossad apologists begins in 3.....2......1.....

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You forget that Israel gave over the Gaza Strip with no conditions and got rockets in return. Your forget that Hamas kills "collaborators and drags their bodies through the street without a trial or any due process. You forget that Israel does not appear on any maps produced by the PA or Hamas. You have the right to your opinion but not the right to make up fiction and call it fact. I agree with your desire for a lasting and peaceful solution. But diplomats cannot create a lasting peace if there is NO desire on the part of one party to make peace. Tell me one, just one, step Hamas has taken since it took over Gaza in 2007 to reach peace.

You simply cannot create a strangled, politically isolated, poverty-encrusted apartheid state and then expect the people who live within it to act appropriately. Were this the case, South Africa would still be ruled by the Afrikaans, while the black population remained in horrific squalor, and African Americans in the American south would still be farming cotton plantations in Alabama and singing cute gospel hymns. Those who fail to learn the lessons of history are condemned to repeat them.

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dude, While quoting the supposed Palestinian song you forget to quote the comments of (culturally superior) israelis. For instance those of gilad sharon, son of the former israeli terrorist in charge: "We need to flatten entire neighborhoods in Gaza. Flatten all of Gaza. The Americans didn’t stop with Hiroshima – the Japanese weren’t surrendering fast enough, so they hit Nagasaki, too. There should be no electricity in Gaza, no gasoline or moving vehicles, nothing." And while quoting Hamas' charter you forgot to quote the Likud charter. You know who Likud is, the governing party of israel whose charter states that the zionists have the right to build settlements wherever they choose in the westbank, that the westbank irrevocably belongs to israel and was given to zionists by god. Guess there must not have been enough column space for you to present a full picture of which side is culturally superior and which side is responsible for the failure of negotiations.

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Right. Again, see my comments on empathy, self-awareness, and a more normal human concern for others. Some just don't have it.

 

And find it hard to imagine.

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The sad tale of Isaac and Ismael.

Try to imagine Rahm Emanuel, the mayor of Chicago, walking around his city when suddenly there is a rain of rockets. Imagine for a moment what would happen if a terrorist organization launched missiles at Chicago, St. Petersburg, Manchester or Marseille.

Hamas has for years been firing rockets and mortar shells indiscriminately at civilians – men, women, children and the elderly, with the sole intent to kill, wound and destroy. This despite the fact that Israel withdrew unilaterally from Gaza in 2005, evacuating dozens of flourishing Jewish settlements. And despite the fact that Israel continues to provide the Palestinians with water, electricity and humanitarian aid.

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-EdContributors/Article.aspx?id=292769

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What's Rahm Emanuel got to do with this?

Oh, I see, the entire comment is a lift from the jpost article.  The answer is absolutely nothing.

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I don't dispute Jacoby's facts, but his conclusions are erroneous.  Of course many Palestinians hate Israel and want to destroy it. But look at the same time at how Israel has been treated them. They mistreat them horribly and then act surprised that Palestinians hate them. What if they were to treat them in a more caring and just manner?



if Israelis were to change their attitudes and behaviors toward Palestinians, I think you might then see a change in attidudes of Palestinians toward Israelis.



Many people, especially I'm afraid Republicans and Conservatives, tend to not take larger contexts of human actions into account in assessing the attitudes and behaviors of others. Instead, they generally maintain a huge blind spot where their awareness of their own impact should be. Here, Israelisrepeatedly smack the Palestinians down, then turn around and say, See!  How they hate us!  Blaming others for attitudes their own actions have largely caused.



Duh!  Time to look into a mirror, maybe?  What we need are leaders and followers who better understand human beings, and their interactions and feelings. Right now, a majority of Israelis, and their supporters in the U.S., do not.

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But, when your views and beliefs are "right", and you know it to the core of your being, how could anyone else's views really matter, and how could the consequences of you acting on those beliefs possibly be wrong?

Bloggers who claim that Israel is mean or unfair to Palestinians were either born just yesterday, or they can't be bothered to check history back in the 1970's. Until the PLO killed 11 Israeli athletes at the Munich Olympics, by suicide bombing. Until then Palestinians were not only at peace with Israel, many of them had JOBS in Israel. it was a mutually useful arrangement. But radical Islamists started traing SUICIDE BOMBERS. Israel was forced to fire all of the Palestinian workers and send them home. It was the Palestinians who killed the Golden Goose.

Perhaps one should say there is a vast moral difference between hard-line conservative Israelis and more normal people, characterizing the latter as having more empathy, self-awareness, and respect and concern for others outside their own group.

These are Two cultures that have been at war for years. How can that be changed? Remove the HATE philosophy from the Islamic culture and the death threats to non Islamic believers. Then Israel will have NO reson to retaliate. Radical Islam practices control and power over life of all by a few men that totally dominate women with a belief that it is their right given by their founder.Change is unlikely and time will see this philosophy creap slowly foreward ever expanding throught out the world as they have planned since the mid 1920s.

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If hate, revenge and murder were essential components of a country, Hamas would have already been successful in establishing a Palestinian state.

"Kitch" I'll go with Australopithecus afarensis.  However, Lucille Ball could do as well as Palestinian and Israeli politicians in terms of finding a solution.

You and I seldom agree on this particular subject but this certainly is a good starting point.   "To play a role in fulfilling Palestinian aspirations, and to unify the Palestinian people, Hamas must put an end to violence, recognize past agreements, and recognize Israel's right to exist."

To simply recognize the right of the Israeli state to exist would go a long way in solving the problem.  Frankly I don't care if they say it privately or publicly but they need to say it.  Israels behavior doesn't help but I have always thought Israel's right to exist is the fundamental issue of Israeli's everything else is more than likely negotiable. 

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Kitchyou're wrong as usual re: priorities. Israeli settler extremism is a threat to American interests too and must be confronted. Stop focusing just on Islamists who are a convenient (and necessary) target but not the only one.

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You seem to operate mainly on the basis of your apparently numerous hatreds. I'm more focused on American interests. Obama confronted Netanyahu andNetanyahu has paid a price for his recklessness toward the president. We don't control Israel but we should be tougher on the govt there. Avoiding critique of the Israeli right to avoid giving support to antisemites seems hypocritical when you so readily and copiouslyscream about Islamists.

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"Kitch"  Perhaps if you noted that Zionism has no problem in killing people either.  Extremism of any form is reprehensible because it lacks the capacity for rational thought.

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If it's Jeff Jacoby writing, you can always count of the same thing no matter the issue. If it's something that he agrees with, then whoever that is can do no wrong. If it's somebody he does not agree with; they they are the devil incarnate. If it's anything to do with Israel, then they can do no wrong and the Palestinians or Arabs or Islamic people are just plain evil. Black and white. Israel good, Palestinians bad. No sense of history. A very American way of looking at things. The best thing to do is just read it like you might read the Boston Herald - for entertainment and not for reasoned information.