I’m going way out on a limb here: Delivering a “Heil Hitler” salute after scoring a game-winning soccer goal is never a good idea. In fact, it’s a horrible idea, so horrible that on Sunday Greece booted the offending 20-year-old Giorgos Katidis from ever again playing on its national team.
Ever. In a world of maybes, such certitude is welcome.
Comments
This is a scary trend. Nice to see that Greeks take a leading role and an immediate action in squashing this behavior.
It would be nice if political writers on the Globe's op-ed page actually knew that there is a difference between nazism and fascism.
Don't just blame the right on fascism - it's a left/right thing. All encompassing state, crony capitalism, protectionism etc.
Tsynch, the left version of fascism is communism, nowadays viewed as extreme socialism.
I often agree with ""tsynch" but not on this one. Facism tends to be a plaything of the right. From nationalism to race-baiting to anti-immigrant behavior. I grant you not generally a problem with "libertarians" but they are such a confused group especially now sloshing between "progressive" moral and social values and then over to "down with govt." the institutioin that protects them from the facist tendencies of the right that suppress those "progressive moral and social values.
This becomes one of the main problems with "labels" they become attached to symbols that become attached to everything else. As "Nathan" pointed out there is indeed a differnce between facism and Nazism, not a huge difference but one big enough that it should have been noted. After all, a shall we call it "democratic facism" is a system any CEO could love.
The more important point in the article is that societies tread on dangerous ground when the politics of austerity lead to a gulf to wide to bridge between rich and poor. Something we should take note of.
Right now it's immigrants that are the scapegoat for all of Europe's woes but history suggests that the fascists will get around to the Jews sooner or later.
We should particularly take note of the actions of the DNC.... they look surprisingly (or not so surprisingly, after all) like Germany in the 30's.
They say "progressive"...but they are cutting out peoples rights left and right.
Looking to have "drones" fly in the homeland...and Holder defends the right to kill AMERICANS without trial.
Government Motors (and solyndra, etc)
The globe reported on the the brownshirt group Obama is leading with off the books donations..
Scape goating of the "rich" (ie those who work and aren't on the dole..) Unless, of course, you are a major DNC contributor (GE anyone?)
Something we MOST CERTAINLY should take note of..
Kudos to Juliette
Interesting article. Being a constitutionalist kinda guy, I wonder how something like that would be handled in this country?
Before anyone goes berserk on my comment, there is no freakin' way I support or think that fascism, nazi's or their ilk should exist anywhere on the planet.
I make this comment because it points out the differences between our constitution and bill of rights and what exists in other countries. Here, it would become a question for debate, my guess is that it wasn't even a discussion in Greece.
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I agree with you about our free speech. In Europe, someone who does not hold the accepted views about the Holocaust and who publishes them can be jailed. Yes, I think many are apologists for the Nazis, who seek to rehabilitate them in the public mind, but jail is not the way we do it in this country, because of our Bill of Rights.
However, those who participate in sports are held to a higher standard while on the field. There are fouls. Banning someone for life from the sport is a desperate move and wrong, in my opinion, for this spontaneous and rabble-rousing gesture. Was it "fire in a crowded theatre"? Did it put immigrants (probably from mostly Moslem countries, and not Jews at all) into immediate danger for their lives during the match? Could there have been a riot? This is possible. And if so, then the speech is even less protected and should be dealt with to prevent any such displays in future. But I don't know the circumstances. And this op-ed piece is low on content, just strident in its attitude of punishment to someone holding an unacceptable view.
"History" My problem with "labels" is that folks place their own peculiar thinking under a certain "label". From that point on they agree with almost anything that someone from that group says regardless of how nonsensical. You know Obama was born in Kenya or Bush planned 9/11. We see it in the postings every day. People live in the "bubble" of their label, whether it is FOX 24/7 or MSNBC 24/7, the label describes them to themselves and their responses to everything reflects it. They are so engrossed with that "label" they can't see the world any other way. You call "labels" shorthand. I call them lazy. I call them I can't discuss the issue with you so I'll call you something that supposedly describes what you are. I have extremely "liberal" views on morality. I'm anti-religious institutions. I am "fiscally conservative". I believe taxes should be high enough to pay for what people want and what people vote for. I am not a "liberal" or a "conservative" and I consider being called either an insult.
As to "libertarians" I simply leave it as the new "pop" philosophy of the day, just like the far left in the 60's. It's cute, but for college freshman. I don't respect it any more than I respect communism and when I see it I object to it. Both are destructive forces within society. As to "socialism and communism" being playthings of the left, I totally agree. Progressive politicies often have had "socialist" tendencies.
I have never promoted "huge" government. I support government. I find it a rather necessary thing in terms of civilized society. Like Adam Smith I think it smooths out the more aggressive tendencies of capitalism. You say you're not a "libertarian" but you make a lot of libertarian noises. You like I benefit from govt. yet you would deny that benefit to others. I simply cannot find a non-contradictory thread in what you write. I like some of it, but it always seems that this embedded hatred of Dems. gets in the way. As I have asked many times in trying to understand your position.
Name a program that does not benefit you that you approve of/
Name one that does benefit you that you disapprove of or would alter.
In answering those two questions I would better grasp where you stand when you comment on issues. Hope this answers your comment.
As usual your comments are well thought out and well written. You use the word "labels". I have always used the word "lens" in a similar way. Some people insist on seeing the worls through the "lens" of their own cause or set of beliefs. Thus, thecpt above would see any action by Obama as evil. That kind of reasoning is why this nation is in serious difficulty.
Thanks "pnntfvr" I agree the reasoning you speak of is the reason why we are in such difficulties. I know it sounds terribly elitist but it seems important to me to point out this stuff when we see it. Any policy, any idea the moment it gets labeled is no longer really viewed as an idea. It suddenly becomes the property of the the label and is no longer discussed or treated on its merits. It just falls into this black hole of the label.
The Nazi regime was fascist and far-right: it was nationalistic, totalitarian, anti-communist, anti-liberal, supported biological racism, and was anti-semetic. Note that one of the first things Hitler did was dissolve the unions. It was called the National Socialist Party because socialism was perceived as a popular movement, not because it actually was socialist as in Marxist socialism. At any rate, Hitler objected to the term "Socialist" in the party name: it was named by a previous party leader. Hitler was pro-capitalism when it was under his direct control, but destroyed capitalistic enterprises when it was not: the perfect marriage of corporate power and state power (authoritarian control by the wealthy elites) defines fascism. In fact, fascism relies completely on capitalism as a base. Moussolini was a great admirer of Hitler's and mimicked Nazism in establishing Italian fascism. If you are curious about fascism, and wonder about fascism in America in our own right-wing politics and capitalistic system, check out Britt's 14 defining characteristics of fascism: http://www.oldamericancentury.org/whitepapers/defining/identifiers_britt.htm. This is a fascinating list derived from comparing various forms of fascism, with a great deal of resonance with our current politics and economics.
I see a mixture of both the right and the left - and of course wikipedia info below is correct :)
Your certainly see elements of this in the left in Venezuela and Argentina with their polices towards religious minorities or the Falklands. I'm sure you have some examples on the right.
Fascism borrowed theories and terminology from Marxist socialism but applied them to what it saw as the more significant conflict between nations and races rather than class conflict, and focuses on ending the divisions between classes within the nation and securing national solidarity.[10] It advocates a mixed economy; the principal economic goal of fascism is to achieve autarky to secure national self-sufficiency and independence, through protectionist and interventionist economic policies.[11] It promotes regulated private enterprise and private property contingent whenever beneficial to the nation and state enterprise and state property where private enterprise and private property is unable to meet the nation's needs.[11] Fascism promotes such economics as part of what is sometimes called a Third Position between capitalism and Marxist socialism.[12]
Fascism was founded during World War I by Italian national syndicalists, who combined elements of left-wing politics with more typically right-wing positions,[13][14] in opposition to mainstream socialism, communism, democracy and, in some cases, traditional right-wing conservatism. Although fascism is usually placed on the far right on the traditional left-right spectrum, fascists themselves and some commentators have argued that the description is inadequate.[15][16] Following the Second World War, few parties openly describe themselves as fascist and the term is more usually used pejoratively by political opponents. The term neo-fascist or post-fascist is sometimes applied more formally to describe parties of the far right with ideological similarities to, or roots in, 20th century fascist movements respectively.
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It work for the US Republican party. Why wouldn't others try fascism again?
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Why are comments being deleted at a wholesale rate? Were they that offensive? I don't see any of mine missing, but what is the deal?
I'm going way out on a limb here - are you sure it was a "Heil Hitler" salute? Or some kind of power salute (Remember Black Power? Remember what preceded the "fist bump"? It was a straight arm in the air salute - and it wasn't to Hitler). In the crazy world of the failing European Union, perhaps the natural progression is nationalism - even, God forbid, Greek nationalism.
It's not necessarily a hate act against the Jews, but a desperate bid to declare independence - maybe. And besides, I never knew the Greeks loved Hitler. Plus, he's been dead for some time now. And yes, there is rising anti-semitism in Europe. But let's not simply do the "zero tolerance" thing where every sign of nationalism is seen as such. Remember, people are desperate not a bunch of born criminals out to get you. Hungary is a place I know something about. One of the ringleaders of the national movement was a young Jew who was descended from Holocaust survivors. He was caught up in the whole anti-banker, anti-Rothschild thing - face it, anti-rich. And that is very Hungarian post-Iron Curtain. They used to have a dull security in their lives, now they have uncertainty and they are afraid they cannot compete and come out on top.
These different nations have different languages and customs. It was always a challenge to put them in a union. Now that union is showing vast differences in ability to keep up with the most powerful nations in them - Germany and France, the old rivals and leaders of Europe for centuries.
I really don't know the meaning of this kid's salute. But suddenly to think it means a threat to me and mine -- I am sorry that is your first and not your second or third reaction. It is a question of priorities. And all those little nations of Europe with their sense of desperation, with their unemployment, could be swayed by a man on a white horse. But he won't be Hitler. He'll be someone or something else. That parade has passed. Another is forming. Be aware of it and do not think history will perfectly repeat itself.
Wall darn it Golf, they had to "do something" !!!!!!
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When the immigrants are muslims who refuse to assimilate, who can blame them for being anti-immigrant?
What's very interesting is that the author is looking for "certitude" just like some nationalists in Europe. I think they have common ground in this: economic uncertainties and hate speech go hand in hand.
Kayyem wants to punish the mis-speakers, mis-gesturers. Europe does have such a history of "zero tolerance." But by refusing to see the story behind it, by demonizing (either Jews or nationalists), the true impetus is lost. The "why." That's why we have a First Amendment. I understand that sports figures are held to a higher standard than the general public, and that is to the good. But draconian solutions like kicking someone out of the sport forever - what does that accomplish? They are hoping the others will not follow suit. But what if they all do? Will that be the end of the sport or will it lead to complicity? By taking a draconian move, you invite worse, in my opinion.
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"History" Okay I'll buy what you're saying I can't say I agree with all of it but you are making a non-plitical legitimate argument. Now don't you think we should be taxed on the benefits we receive or at least pony up something. I recieve complete medical coverage from the VA for wounds etc., but it seems to me at my income level I should be billed at least 20 bucks a visit. I even think there should be some tax obligation related to my income level on these benefits. I get no taxes if that is all some guy gets but I have more income than just that. People talk about the 47 percent like it is nothing but moochers, but I'm not a moocher and feel I do owe something back and that we should be contributing back to the society that benefits us.
As to the deleting. There has been a lot of that lately and I find it extremely annoying and cowardly. If you don't like the comment then say something. I hope we're not going to go through that horror show again.
From what I see an ad hominem attack will get a deletion.
Could be I've been in and out so haven't seen those that have been deleted.
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Here's some irony: Greece was occupied by the Nazis in WWII. After the war, things *got worse* (a very nasty civil war.) Daily life was actually better for many in Greece during the occupation than after the liberation (the Nazis may have been brutal, but they kept order.) Sad.